Donut Ökonomie: Idealismus oder Business?

00:00:00: Imagine a donut.

00:00:01: The end goal is coming into that sweet spot, the outer ring of the doughnut is representing the planet's boundaries.

00:00:09: Circularity – That's where companies can make money!

00:00:14: Where square one?

00:00:17: Regulation does have a key role to play in encouraging companies to make their right choices.

00:00:24: Technology will help at certain extent but it won't solve this problem.

00:00:28: We reach a very influential audience of senior decision-makers.

00:00:32: we talk about brain print.

00:00:34: The City Vienna has done some excellent work to come up with the brand made in Vienna and

00:00:45: the environment.

00:00:48: do something good.

00:00:50: You have already heard it, today is a special episode because I have a guest from Great Britain so we will continue to speak English.

00:01:39: Hello,

00:01:40: thank you for inviting

00:01:42: me.

00:01:45: Hello,

00:01:46: hello.

00:02:12: So let's switch to English!

00:02:15: Marina, can you please explain very briefly what the doughnut economy is and what has it got to do with pastry?

00:02:21: And what has he got to deal with a circular economy.

00:02:24: So first imagine a donut in front of us.

00:02:27: so everybody knows that a doughnut is effectively a circle with a hole in the middle.

00:02:32: The nice part about the doughnuts are of course the sweet spot where we could actually eat.

00:02:42: some wonderful substance to be able to enjoy.

00:02:45: The doughnut doesn't make sense as a concept without explaining what the rings of the donut entail, so the outer ring is representing the planet's boundaries which are resource thresholds on one hand and risk levels like climate biodiversity water these all areas where we need functioning ecosystems.

00:03:10: And the inner ring of the doughnut is effectively The United Nations Sustainable Development Goals.

00:03:15: This is basically achieving a good place, Good means for people to be able To thrive with life's essentials.

00:03:22: Basically

00:03:22: Okay.

00:03:23: and so the economy that we're looking For Is the sweet spot?

00:03:26: It's the dough?

00:03:27: Yes okay Just to complete the image.

00:03:30: So to sum this up We are moving away from A linear economy.

00:03:35: How do you deal With raw materials?

00:03:37: In English You talk about take, make waste.

00:03:40: And we're moving to a regenerative model.

00:03:43: Emily you are in charge of sustainability at The Economist and will talk about the publishing business on one hand or journalism on another.

00:03:52: but first what brought you to Vienna?

00:03:54: So I came to Vienna for impact days with some tensions that were facing our world in sustainability.

00:04:01: it's challenging time because Well, there's a lot of issues going on.

00:04:07: If you look at the sustainability agenda we want to be focusing on climate and environment but all these competing issues that are top companies' agendas AI geopolitical issues economic uncertainty war And so climate and environmental is slipping down that agenda.

00:04:25: So what were trying do was highlight some tensions.

00:04:29: facing this tension between short termism still having focus in long-term the types of leadership that we need for the future compared to, I think what we're kind of going through today.

00:04:41: The risks that were facing our companies being are setting themselves up for resilience and the visibility of hidden dependencies or refactoring externalities into the way our businesses are

00:04:52: structured.".

00:04:53: We'll

00:04:53: talk about in detail just a second... Just for simplicity's sake here.

00:05:01: pragmatist because you will talk to us about how big international corporations think.

00:05:07: And you, Marina are the idealists with this idea of a donut economy and we would navigate through those ideas.

00:05:13: but before we continue I'd like know what is your issue?

00:05:18: Why do you care so much about this subject?

00:05:21: Marina i'll start with you

00:05:23: Sure!

00:05:24: I think caring for my environment really came as child when growing up in California.

00:05:30: Basically, we're Earth Day celebrations in kindergarten.

00:05:33: So it was already very much part of our

00:05:36: lifestyle.

00:05:37: I think the environment has always been close to my heart and living in Switzerland then for fourteen years enabled me to experience glacial melt firsthand And the sadness that it brings.

00:05:48: when you see entire landscapes eroding.

00:05:51: You hear the mountains and the permafrost melting The rocks crashing into these valleys.

00:05:58: So, environmental issues really started to come home for me physically in Switzerland.

00:06:03: And then I began not only want to write about it and talk a bit but do something.

00:06:12: So I joined the Economist Intelligence Unit in two thousand and eight, which is part of the economist group.

00:06:17: And one of the first projects that started working on was something called The European Green City Index with a large infrastructure company in Germany.

00:06:26: It became clear to me this wasn't just about emissions.

00:06:31: we looked at cities from across different categories transport policymaking, civil society waste water all of these different things and it became clear that this is a really systemic issue and much more challenging than I had previously understood.

00:06:47: So that was, as opposed to an awakening we presented at COP-Fifteen which was in Copenhagen and it was seen at the time being pretty much a disaster.

00:06:55: but i suppose the action part came when I have my second daughter ,I was carrying her on my Manduka with those ergo baby carriers .

00:07:05: And I was reading Cormac McCarthy's book The Road Which is probably not good combination of having a baby landscape, what happens after a climate disaster.

00:07:15: And I just felt i'm going to leave my kids with?

00:07:18: What am I doing?

00:07:19: you know how can I do something that have positive impact for my children and why can't they be

00:07:23: behind?".

00:07:24: And did the Economist had a sustainability officer at this point or did you create their position?

00:07:29: Well The Economists has been writing about Climate Change for long time since late eighties when James Hansen the NASA scientist testified in front of US Congress that climate change was an issue And we've been covering it ever since, but we published in twenty nineteen the so-called climate issue and In that issue Climate was tackled on every single article That we published to show that It touches whatever We write about whether its science or technology Whether is economics?

00:07:56: Whether it's you know human rights.

00:07:58: So everything that we talked About.

00:08:00: Actually I Was working together with Marina at The time were ex colleagues An initiative started not just To look at this external issues of change, but what impacts are we having as the Economist's group and newspaper on our external environment?

00:08:16: And a grassroots initiative was formed at that time.

00:08:19: The role kind of developed out

00:08:23: And this issue that you mentioned, the climate issues.

00:08:25: Was it shocking to your readers?

00:08:27: Did people protest?

00:08:28: I mean was there new...

00:08:29: No!

00:08:30: no i think It WAS New and I know The Journalists were working on it.

00:08:34: They had lots of internal discussions.

00:08:36: Is That Something they could publish?

00:08:37: but they felt Yes This is something we should do.

00:08:39: So through the whole edition Right Through To The Obituary which was about a glacier that died in Iceland.

00:08:48: At that time We didn't have A Backlash from our Readers

00:08:51: No.

00:08:52: That's surprising?

00:08:53: Perhaps it was the time where there was much more of an open discussion about climate and

00:08:58: that... I think Friday is for future, no?

00:09:01: Yes!

00:09:02: It was around a time when there were so many movements with interest in the topic from across all aspects of society wanting to understand this issue as well as lack of knowledge.

00:09:15: So our readers are interested.

00:09:18: We'll get back to that right away, but at the beginning of conversation I always like bring in a big number.

00:09:24: That makes us understand why we talk about it?

00:09:26: Why this

00:09:26: matters?".

00:09:28: This time i chose from the World Economic Forum.

00:09:31: so they are not exactly leftists or dreamy idealist... They published a survey And the number that I'm going to mention is eighty, because this recent study they published showed that eighty percent of business leaders say that circularity is important or very important for their organization.

00:09:51: That number more than doubled in only three years.

00:09:54: so it's big and that number is expected to rise!

00:10:01: So we have a big number, eighty.

00:10:04: Eighty percent of business leaders say that circularity is important.

00:10:08: Emily, wow a huge number.

00:10:10: why now?

00:10:10: Because at the same time we hear ESG's dead The Green Deal Is Dead.

00:10:15: European governments are scaling back their climate policies.

00:10:19: How do you explain that number?

00:10:21: and Do You Think green growth is really dead or what's happening here?

00:10:25: there's

00:10:25: a lot questions.

00:10:26: yeah

00:10:26: I know but it's eighty versus this movement that we seem to see everywhere, that nobody cares about climate anymore?

00:10:34: Well I mean there's a couple of topics.

00:10:36: It seems like no one is caring for the climate any more and i think it has been more nuanced than not.

00:10:41: or companies stepping away from having targets at all will come back into circulation in moments different.

00:10:48: Wonderworld Economic Forum data point that you're giving.

00:10:51: I don't think companies are stepping away from their targets, they may be in some regions of the CDP.

00:10:57: state-of decarbonisation reports analysing all engagement may be influencing the scores of US and Brazilian companies.

00:11:09: They were scoring lower on leadership in management categories, the way that the CDP scores companies compared to companies another economies...

00:11:17: Maybe you can explain what CDP is?

00:11:19: Sorry!

00:11:20: The carbon disclosure project so it measures and its score as companies across lots of different factors emissions measurement working towards targets-the types of governance they have in place.

00:11:31: And twenty three I think two twenty five thousand company report to the CDP every year, so it's a good benchmark.

00:11:38: And at same time PWC has also been looking at- PricewaterhouseCoopers?

00:11:44: I think they are actually called PWC these days though!

00:11:47: They've rebranded themselves or setting targets.

00:11:49: about eight and ten companies still have targets there either some of them accelerating their targets but they're holding fast.

00:11:58: So there's this talk of a sense.

00:12:00: we've moved from greenwashing, which is where companies would set these targets that were pretty much nonsensical.

00:12:07: And they weren't really working towards and had no way of getting toward it to companies being much quieter about.

00:12:13: in the sense Circularity is a slightly different topic because I think that's where companies can also make money so they can drive value from waste.

00:12:23: And some of the examples of companies looking at circularity, certainly in hard to debate sectors are generating money from actually looking at a circular approach because their driving efficiencies things that they're extracting and otherwise just getting rid off.

00:12:37: well we could use it as product or a product stream.

00:12:41: Is ESG dead?

00:12:45: We have written that it is dead.

00:12:46: You know, this ESG was not fit for purpose and it was too horned into a framework the companies felt wasn't helpful.

00:12:54: I think regulation particularly in the EU Was really difficult for companies.

00:12:59: if we look at CSRD The Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive which came to place initially For Companies i think you did see companies looking Into the headlights.

00:13:09: they had twelve hundred to sixteen-hundred indicators that they had to report on.

00:13:15: They were putting, you know in some cases for large organisations hundreds of people in place just to work on reporting.

00:13:22: I don't think that is efficient for companies.

00:13:24: so i think the omnibus which was simplifying to be able take that information as we talked about earlier, what are the hidden dependencies and how can I work with that information?

00:13:37: To form their strategy rather than just some sort of reporting exercise.

00:13:41: So

00:13:42: you're basically saying that the circular economy is a way to move forward and actually do something good for the environment on reduced emissions And that's more acceptable to companies because there's a business case in it.

00:13:54: Yeah i think It Can In That Case Improve Business Economics because

00:13:58: we want to reduce dependencies.

00:14:00: or why now?

00:14:01: Well, I mean there's certainly guidance coming into place regulations.

00:14:05: Coming in two places and Europe also in the US.

00:14:07: so that will change the way companies are able.

00:14:12: But I think companies are just feeling that they should be moving away from this extractive approach.

00:14:18: And there is coming back to Marina's point about planetary boundaries, There is a limit what we can extract at some point.

00:14:26: if you're in the mining organization or concrete organisation and rely on resources that basically digging out of their ground If your'e just diggin it out then wasting things theres limits how far you go with them.

00:14:37: so would use those products turn into value.

00:14:41: but we've known for a very long time that this is a concept that cannot last.

00:14:46: But now, we seem to understand that we really have to change the way we do business.

00:14:51: so why now?

00:14:52: Is it because of pricing or availability or The Wars We're Seeing?

00:14:57: Why has the Time come That we finally Understand This?

00:15:00: I don't know.

00:15:00: That's a question I can't answer.

00:15:21: The abundance is still there.

00:15:28: It's much cheaper to produce cement according to legacy technology than it actually makes green cement, the Green Premium is just huge.

00:15:39: so right now we're at a moment where policy has recognized that action needs be taken but business struggling make this case work in many instances and thats why sustainability challenge is prevalent.

00:15:53: I think energy argument is easier.

00:15:56: That is, we don't have enough energy to go on.

00:15:58: Energy

00:15:58: security?

00:15:59: We've already gone through the Ukraine-Russia war and we saw also with our suppliers in Germany.

00:16:05: they were cutting off.

00:16:07: you could access gas for a certain number of hours per day.

00:16:09: well that affects the amount of products our suppliers moving to electric combined heat power plants because they want to have more energy security, because the costs were too high.

00:16:25: So I think the argument around energy security is very clear and lots of organizations are working towards that Because renewable energy it's more reliable And its cheaper at times like these.

00:16:36: But this circularity argument i think has certainly a slightly different one.

00:16:40: But let's talk about the circularity argument, Marina.

00:16:43: At The Impact Days you explained how the doughnut economy works and gave a few examples.

00:16:48: for instance You talked about the outdoors clothing company Paragonia And they take alot of boxes that would fit the concept of the donut economy.

00:16:58: What are doing right?

00:16:59: Explain to us.

00:17:00: So Patagonia has always been a bit of a flagship company when it comes to their sustainability initiatives because they take it really at a holistic level.

00:17:09: You know, being pioneers on material reduction targets climate targets and so on.

00:17:14: but what makes them really different is the organizational structure that isn't allowing them To ensure that there purpose as an organization Is linked too?

00:17:23: Their sustainability performance forever.

00:17:27: So in twenty-twenty two, Patagonia chose to go purpose instead of being listed on the stock market to go public and actually made Earth its main shareholder while still being a for profit business.

00:17:40: And what this means is that it basically has a steward ownership model where Patagonian has been able to separate money and power In the ownership model itself which enables the sustainability actions and decision making that's needed to be able.

00:18:00: thing

00:18:06: about a steward ownership model, it doesn't mean that the company cannot generate profits and be sustainable.

00:18:12: The difference is...is at the profits that it generates are reinvested back into their business primarily to enable the organization to grow and for sustainability measures to be implemented instead

00:18:24: of giving them

00:18:26: money to shareholders where they effectively disappears for the organization's purposes, but is a dividend for someone else or as improving someone else's wealth where there was not direct relationship between that wealth and value it has been generated.

00:18:42: But you said inside of the doughnut all these categories like fair wages, health education... How do they incorporate those?

00:18:53: So, obviously there are two components to an international business like Patagonia.

00:18:58: I mean one is the people that actually working for their organization directly.

00:19:03: and then second component it's the people who work in companies which produce products they're selling.

00:19:10: And i think first instance everything owned within a company can very easily you know ensure them paid fairly probably well above market rates.

00:19:20: But in the supply chain, this is where we're getting into this dimension.

00:19:25: Where we do have situations when clothing manufacturers are not paying living wages and there's a relatively high percentage... I think it's about forty percent of people who work within Patagonia's supply chains still aren't receiving a living wage And that's because of the structures of fashion and clothing industry at a global level.

00:19:47: Okay, you're talking about shortfall where even a company like Patagonia cannot avoid it.

00:19:51: this point?

00:19:52: But let us try to understand what they do.

00:19:54: right in the beginning I looked up their sustainability report.

00:19:58: It is so very detailed how and where they save emissions, reduce emissions.

00:20:05: Maybe you can explain a little of that work?

00:20:07: Absolutely!

00:20:08: And I haven't worked with Patagonia directly.

00:20:10: but definitely looking at their public reporting... They have very ambitious goals on secondary waste.

00:20:16: so it means the products produce are going to be coming back into their value chain.

00:20:21: They have a strategic focus on repair and reuse, actually making that part of the business model so people aren't buying jackets all the time because this jacket is of poor quality.

00:20:37: So if we remember that campaign, it was... Going by

00:20:40: this jacket?

00:20:40: By this jacket!

00:20:42: I mean its sending out anti-consumer messages and certainly thats a contribution to moving away from fast fashion.

00:20:49: If you're wearing the same Jacket for fifteen to twenty years then You haven't bought A new one.

00:20:56: Okay but The question Is how do they still make money if They tell People not To buy a Jacket?

00:21:00: so Right now growing revenue by increasing market share.

00:21:06: And I think from an overall perspective and from an environmental perspective, we should all be happy that Patagonia is increasing market-share because the profits they do then deliver – even one percent of profits are donated to climate causes And the rest is reinvested back to the business.

00:21:22: So if you actually can imagine a company like Patagonia becoming even larger and more successful, that still feels like a good thing.

00:21:29: Marina

00:21:30: You mentioned a few times steward ownership.

00:21:33: What does it mean?

00:21:33: Can you explain?

00:21:34: Sure The Steward Ownership model means That A Company Really Locks In Its Purpose Has An Ownerships Structure Which Prevents It From Moving Away from That Purpose and even being sold.

00:21:47: So in Patagonia's case, it has this hold fast collective which is owning ninety-eight percent of the company And that part as non voting shares and The Patagonian Purpose Trust holds two percent and owns one hundred percent Of the Voting Stock.

00:22:04: so That means that the team that Is actually managing the Company cannot decide to move away from the mission that It Has Actually aligned To?

00:22:14: How does that sound to you, Emily?

00:22:16: Is it a one-off or can other companies learn from Patagonia?

00:22:20: is that business model that's applicable too many.

00:22:23: Or is kind of a dreamy idealist thing... A lot people criticise the donut economy for being very lofty idealists.

00:22:32: I think the ownership model Marina was talking about is key point.

00:22:36: The

00:22:37: stewardship

00:22:38: Not necessarily the steward ownership, but actually who owns the company.

00:22:43: So I did some research aside from my job as working on a piece of group.

00:22:48: research is part of university project not that long ago and when i was an actual student because it would be thirty years ago.

00:22:54: But looked at companies in consumer goods industry including Colgate, Tenkel, Byersdorf Unilever And one of key foundings we had with that project The consumer goods companies are bound by fiduciary duty And that does have a limitation on what they can do.

00:23:13: They have the fiduciary duty to deliver shareholder value, otherwise they can be sued by their shareholders but independent companies and some of these are where the family is still involved with German company Henkelbierstorff-they had much more flexibility.

00:23:29: you could see in detail about decarbonisation strategies effectively, they were working towards that.

00:23:36: So I think the role of ownership is very important and we have a slight parallel at The Economist newspaper not with regards to environment but defends the independence of the newspaper.

00:23:50: We have four trustees that don't have any voting rights in terms of the company, but they make decisions on this independence of The Newspaper and board is separate to them.

00:24:00: we have an employee shareholder program although you know employees Don't Have Voting Rights But You Can See That Types Of Things Can Be Very Much Protected And That's What Makes Economists In Comparison To Other Newspapers Quite Unique.

00:24:13: We Don'T Have A Majority Shareholder.

00:24:15: Again has to do with our journalism, not the environment or biodiversity of nature.

00:24:21: But it just shows how important this ownership model actually

00:24:25: is.".

00:24:29: For them, it's much harder.

00:24:30: I think is a lot harder.

00:24:31: they have also a duty to the economy are seen as an driver of the economy by the government.

00:24:37: so if you're unilever Of course You expected certain extent to employ people To be in a driver growth and that makes it incredibly challenging to make fundamental changes.

00:24:49: Do you see way listed companies could still do or not?

00:24:52: It isn't clear for me looking at Donut model how would they do That?

00:24:57: because the way that our structures are in place.

00:25:00: And again, we can't see organizations independently and also point their finger just at businesses.

00:25:07: Businesses exist in an economy along with the finance sector as well as governments.

00:25:13: players act together.

00:25:15: If you want to rewire the economy, if you want a rewire change then you need to look at actions across all of these three different areas.

00:25:23: and it's not just something that business can drive on its own but needs to be incentivized or supported by the finance industry.

00:25:29: It needs to support government policy regulation.

00:25:32: My question is how?

00:25:33: We've talked about businesses themselves what kind initiatives they could do.

00:25:42: Well, I mean i think regulation is a key area.

00:25:45: We were coming back to the point of regulation and then degree deal.

00:25:48: we're talking about it earlier.

00:25:49: I do think regulation does have a key role to play in encouraging companies to make the right choices.

00:25:56: This is from

00:25:57: the economist liberal newspaper?

00:25:59: We write about that though!

00:26:00: You know...we talk about the need for the Paris Agreement but how important that is in guiding countries towards the nationally determined contributions toward an zero target.

00:26:11: There's a scientific argument for net zero target.

00:26:14: I mean, that's absolutely what we write about.

00:26:16: it is the science but you do need to have some sort of policies in place to encourage the right type of action.

00:26:23: should You Have A Lot Of Red Tape That Is Discouraging Companies From Being Active?

00:26:28: No!

00:26:28: Are there other things that could be done?

00:26:30: yes and We Write Extensively About The Need For A Carbon Tax And A Carbon tax would be more effective in encouraging change, that reducing subsidies on fossil fuels have a bigger impact.

00:26:43: So I think there are a lot of levers that we're not using, it could be used more effectively and these are topics to cover in the newspaper across all our data analysis of the EIU, the Economist Intelligence Unit or events.

00:26:55: so we do discuss this on a wide

00:26:57: level.".

00:27:08: And our political parties that claim to be business friendly argue exactly against what you have just said.

00:27:15: They are trying keep subsidies in place.

00:27:18: It's taking them a long time to do away with him.

00:27:21: They're against carbon pricing or trying to put it off through the future, what did you say?

00:27:25: Well I think its challenging and see that Mark Carney was trying to introduce our carbon tax had slightly changed because there is lot of pushback from regular citizen on street would impact.

00:27:36: so i think has be handled in way that regular individuals are not having pay the price of carbon tax but they have role for these types of instruments and fossil fuel subsidies.

00:27:50: It's seven trillion dollars that are being paid to fossil fuels, could that go into other types of technologies?

00:27:57: Yes I think it can.

00:27:58: then something the government should be exploring

00:28:02: even conservative parties.

00:28:05: but tell us a little bit about The Economist as publishing house.

00:28:09: you've described the ownership structure But publishing is resource intensive?

00:28:14: Yeah.

00:28:15: You have logistics to deal with, you have printing of all these things and how do make it sustainable?

00:28:20: what's your job there?

00:28:21: So we started measuring our footprint at the same time as we published The Climate issue in twenty nineteen And since then We've reduced our footprint by thirty four percent.

00:28:31: a science based target In twenty twenty one To reduce emissions by forty three percent By twenty thirty.

00:28:38: so in line With the net zero ambition The key lever has been paper.

00:28:44: So, paper is highly energy intensive uses a huge amount of energy and water to get the trees.

00:28:51: you cut down the tree so turn it into poppin' make incredibly thin paper And one of the levers that was pricing.

00:28:58: So nudging customers to make more sustainable choice.

00:29:03: Originally when we had bundle edition of The Economist You would receive print on digital together in your subscription.

00:29:11: but we changed the pricing that digital was the base.

00:29:14: And if you wanted to print edition, you'd pay extra for them and that had a huge impact on our footprint and emissions reduced very quickly after then.

00:29:24: so five years ago or we have sixty-five percent of our readers were prints and today it's sixty-five percent are digital.

00:29:31: So its really change our footprint to Digital First Business.

00:29:35: Of course It comes with relying more data centers and more energy storage.

00:29:41: So that's a question mark, of course as to how is going to change our footprint in the future?

00:29:47: We're starting to see a slight increase on what we call the use phase.

00:29:51: emissions which you go your laptop or you go on your phone and consume the Economist videos are on the app.

00:29:59: so we are seeing now a slight increased there.

00:30:02: How will it play out in?

00:30:04: the waste from the newspaper was at least a significant part of our footprint and we've done big steps to reduce that so far.

00:30:13: And has becoming digital made your business cheaper, to produce?

00:30:17: Well it's more cost-effective yeah So

00:30:19: its' more cost effective but the effect on environment is yet be seen because you don't know if all data centres will... kind of compensate the positive effects.

00:30:30: But we

00:30:31: work on an initiative called Impact which is a group of media companies, which includes the BBC, Spotify, Netflix, Cambridge University Press... A whole load of different publishers print digital broadcasters and were all looking at this issue you know mapping out the emissions impact or footprint from actual writing our content creation through to how it's being delivered on the internet, how people are consuming that and starting to develop levers we believe available for us as an industry.

00:31:04: But one of things we're keen to understand is the actual impact of data centres in potentially AI.

00:31:11: so working together as a industry trying to understand or improve transparency information receiving?

00:31:18: Are there any donut aspects in your business publishing?

00:31:23: Absolutely.

00:31:23: I mean if you just think about what we do, A-we have a very clear purpose.

00:31:28: We are an independent newspaper.

00:31:30: We're analysing the facts and trying to make all of the chaos that we talked earlier on understandable for our readers And we've got a huge role in playing it.

00:31:40: Translating what's going under the world For our readers In terms of climate.

00:31:44: What impact does this have?

00:31:46: We reach a very influential audience of senior decision makers that can make decisions within their organisations to change the way they're operating.

00:31:54: And we talk about this, I mean my journalist colleagues would not love this word but... We talked about brain print in our industry association.

00:32:01: Brain print?

00:32:02: What is it?

00:32:02: Well the impact on our content and readers.

00:32:05: Instead of brain

00:32:05: print!

00:32:06: The footprint exactly.

00:32:07: Or footprint

00:32:08: yeah so its whole purpose.

00:32:10: We know what our mission is.

00:32:12: It's very clear, reaching out audiences having a positive impact.

00:32:16: we have the foundation that we run to educate children on media literacy.

00:32:20: it called The Economist Educational Foundation and we actively work with communities.

00:32:25: I'm also chair of Our Charitable Trust.

00:32:27: We have project grants that we issue every year to the communities that were working in.

00:32:31: So I think there are lots of aspects of what we do where we're considering not just running our business, but very much... What's our purpose and how can we additionally have a positive impact on the community?

00:32:43: I'll remember the word brain print!

00:32:47: That leads me to the question Do you think companies are ahead of politics?

00:32:51: They know they need change And more courageous than politicians.

00:32:55: That's a hard question.

00:32:56: I think if you had asked me that maybe two or three years ago, i would have said yes!

00:33:01: I think now it is hard to know...I think companies are probably acting slightly below the parapet.

00:33:07: There was this green hushing and I mentioned earlier.. I think companies much more careful at the moment about what they're saying externally.

00:33:15: And Are They Acting Ahead Of Regulations?

00:33:18: Do You Take Examples Like Patagonia?

00:33:19: Absolutely or there are lots of different examples of companies they're trying to work ahead.

00:33:24: Or we have a science-based target, that's voluntary?

00:33:26: We don't need to do all the reporting.

00:33:29: so I think it is but certainly a bit quieter on that front.

00:33:32: Okay

00:33:33: i'd like to sum up this topic.

00:33:35: you know a lot of politicians say the market will fix it and technology will fix It...I understand from your that you disagree..we DO NEED REGULATION.

00:33:44: I THINK TECHNOLOGY WILL HELP.

00:33:46: Technology does play an important role and it could be something basic as adapting.

00:33:51: or being more resilient to the climate risks that we're going to face.

00:33:55: So it could be something like air conditioning is available for people in countries where it's gonna become incredibly hot, so they can be resilient to heat.

00:34:03: It could be transition from green energy to renewables and carbon removal.

00:34:08: We talk about geoengineering, geothermal... Are these things that we want to have?

00:34:13: No but it's adapting and being resilient!

00:34:15: Will they solve the climate crisis?

00:34:18: They are not help, they are going to expose managed parts of that.

00:34:23: But if we do get this worst case scenario which is a three degree world and more then technology will help us at certain extent but it's not gonna solve the problem.

00:34:32: So

00:34:32: we need legislation to limit emissions in each country?

00:34:36: Yes

00:34:37: Well yes

00:34:38: In Austria We've been struggling to pass law for exactly four years now.

00:34:43: Marina I'm moving back because you're also advising the city In terms of implementing donut economic principles, give us a rough idea what that would entail.

00:34:54: Sure I think the way The City Vienna has already referenced donut economic principle within its circularity strategy is basically great place to start and fits perfectly with your podcast.

00:35:05: It's really about recognizing global responsibility on one hand And then devising concrete actions and measurement instances that can actually be taken to deliver on these goals.

00:35:20: So within the circularity strategy, The City of Vienna has done some excellent work to establish what is its material footprint?

00:35:27: How much are it's citizens consuming every year?

00:35:32: how much waste are we producing?

00:35:34: so What Are We Doing Right in Vienna ?

00:35:36: So...what were doing right Is That We Have Understood The Problem and set targets.

00:35:42: That's literally the stage where we are at the moment, I have a number of great initiatives in place.

00:35:47: The vision that was starting to see from a circularity perspective is it can also be turned into business opportunity people producing clothing which is made from used materials and redesigning it into a way, which is fashionable and popular.

00:36:17: So basically cities, municipalities play big role in pushing local businesses?

00:36:23: Absolutely!

00:36:24: And creating incentives and frameworks and also regulatory guidelines on things like what can go to waste.

00:36:34: I think on circularity, it's also about pricing raw materials versus reused materials.

00:36:40: Right now we're in a situation where reused material simply are obviously more expensive because of the systems that need to be created but cities can help by creating the infrastructure to do that.

00:36:50: Austria has a strategy or policy on the circular economy?

00:36:54: The city Vienna has.

00:36:55: one is just patient paper as would say German.

00:37:00: how you know these policies have any effect?

00:37:02: How did measure success here?

00:37:04: I think the circularity rate is a good measure of success, so

00:37:10: that describes how many raw materials are being

00:37:13: reused

00:37:13: within this economy.

00:37:34: Nature, if you will.

00:37:35: If you have everything that can be either biodegraded or recycled and reused back into the cycle then we'll have a completely different shape of an economy.

00:37:45: So in short term The government needs to seize this business opportunity for transformation And overall our economic resilience on resource intensive industries need to be reduced.

00:37:58: ideally We should shift to regenerative business models that can be phased in to creating this local employment and reducing our reliance on extractive fossil fuel industries over time.

00:38:11: But, it would shape the way the Austrian economy is set up because we rely very heavily on heavy industry?

00:38:17: Indeed!

00:38:18: And I think that's where we need creative minds.

00:38:20: We want people have a different vision for their future.

00:38:24: What should our world look like?

00:38:25: what do we want to enable children with happy futures?

00:38:30: According to a context institute study, the export of recycling machinery and recycled materials can generate two point two billion euros in additional value creation.

00:38:41: And twenty thousand three hundred additional jobs in Austria.

00:38:44: so it sort of becomes a question why don't we do this?

00:38:46: Why Don't We Do This?

00:38:48: We are continuing to uphold business models which do not necessarily have success written on them for the long term.

00:38:57: And is that because of old structures in terms of lobbyist

00:39:01: groups?

00:39:01: or what's the root?

00:39:03: Absolutely.

00:39:04: I mean, it's a general recognition of how urgent this transformation needs to be.

00:39:10: overall challenges with change management not wanting To be agile enough to change before disruption happens.

00:39:18: We need to wait for disruption to happen Before we changed why and It is absolutely people that have successful thriving businesses running on old business models, they will also be happier to keep them.

00:39:31: That way this is where we need to invite new forms of bold leadership and have policymakers making stronger policy initiatives to be operating in the interest of society not only business.

00:39:44: So this very much a leadership issue?

00:39:46: Absolutely!

00:39:47: We politicians that are also articulating these points and our willing to put forward a generational solution.

00:39:56: And I think we need to have a new economic narrative, that demonstrates were not entirely reliant on industries of the past in that we worry less about letting go but moving towards something positive instead of talking.

00:40:17: Is there anything you wish from the Austrian government, should anyone hear this?

00:40:22: Climate law perhaps.

00:40:25: Would be good!

00:40:26: Step number one.

00:40:27: and I would also really wish more work to be done actually on food and agriculture sector.

00:40:38: are really positive.

00:40:46: And what you were saying is where do we get to the point of not wasting things?

00:40:49: We work with pulp and paper manufacturers, large organisations... I've spent quite a lot time speaking about waste streams.

00:40:58: are they looking at, you know what do they do with their waste?

00:41:01: And so we don't have ways.

00:41:02: We use everything that comes from the trees.

00:41:05: I think it's incredibly interesting.

00:41:06: They manage their forest very well.

00:41:08: The cut down to the trees of course there burning some of its biofuel But then used a waste form.

00:41:13: the paper making process these the lignin There capturing some of the carbon for reuse.

00:41:17: So actually quite an interesting sector and they're trying to innovate.

00:41:21: You start seeing happening in hard-to-bate sector.

00:41:24: It certainly sends us signal.

00:41:26: this is positive impact.

00:41:28: You're trying to end on a positive note?

00:41:30: Yeah,

00:41:32: I am!

00:41:34: To sum this up in Europe how far are we on our path to go full circle?

00:41:40: Are you

00:41:40: looking for

00:41:40: numbers?!

00:41:42: Just a rough estimate where are we standing now?

00:41:44: Honestly I think companies are trying hard.

00:41:49: Some industries ahead of the curve have talked about pulp and paper, they're doing pretty well but we've got quite a long way to go.

00:41:56: That

00:41:56: means that there's ten percent or twenty percent of the circle?

00:42:00: Or less.

00:42:00: global circularity gap?

00:42:02: Or global circularities radius by six

00:42:04: per cent?

00:42:06: I would say a fairly new...

00:42:09: We're at square one!

00:42:10: Yeah

00:42:11: exactly it is a new concept.

00:42:13: Well, we have a lot to talk about.

00:42:15: We contributed to the conversation today!

00:42:17: Thank you very much for being here.